Lancaster loses two engines on take-off - ww2 625 Squadron Bomber Command - original account

Just before 17.25hrs on the evening of 3^rd November 1943 Lancaster W4833 of 625 Squadron  lined up for take-off on a sortie to Dusseldorf. The crew were setting out on their second operation together, their first had been to Kassel on the 22^nd October when they had had a close call with an enemy night-fighter. Rear gunner Frank Sutton's log book recorded – 'ops Kassel. Expended 150 rounds. Damaged Fw190 in combat (1 attack).'

Pilot F/Sgt Reg Price had previously flown as 'second-dickie' with P/O Edgar Pickles and crew on 20^th October op to Berlin (and on the same night M/u Harry Powter had filled in for the absent F/Sgt Bill Allan in Jimmie Ives's crew on their abortive sortie). The other members of Price's crew were f/e Les Knowles, navigator Dudley Ball, b/a Jack Conley and w/op Jim Harris. Their bomb-load on this occasion included a 4,000lb 'cookie' fused to explode on impact and 12 SBCs (small bomb containers), canisters containing 2,800 incendiaries. Fuel-load for Dusseldorf and back was 1200 gallons. Take-off was renowned to be potentially the most 'dicey' part of any flight.

Sgt Sutton's log-book records the following entry 'inner engines u/s (Dusseldorf)' – for the trip which turned out to be short and eventful. Many thanks to Iain Sutton for allowing me to reproduce his father's account of what happened. I defy anyone not to be gripped by the following narrative, written soon after returning to base:-

('height 60ft Reg')

(for 'Doug' read 'Dud')

The squadron ORB records this version of events:- Lancaster W4833 - Target Dusseldorf – 'Aircraft 'J'. Up 17.25 dn 18.40hrs. 'Task abandoned. Both engines cut just after take-off. Course set out to sea but difficult to maintain height. Incendiaries and guns jettisoned to enable sufficient height to be gained to jettison 4,000lb bomb. Landed at base at 18.40.' 

back row :- Les Knowles, Jack Conley, Harry Powter, front row:- Frank Sutton, Reg Price, Dud Ball (Jim Harris absent)

 

WW2 Bomber Command casualties W/O D.W.T. Johnson DFC and Sgt W.J. Allan RAAF :- Davey and Bill

Sincere thanks to those who have contacted me through the website over the past few months letting me know that they are related to airmen mentioned in the research lists. I am keen and always more than happy to hear about folks whose paths may have crossed that of cousin Jim Ives somewhere along the way. Any stories of personnel who attended any of Jim's postings (including school and work) around the same times as he did are always welcome and if you've someone who served at Kelstern, Wickenby or RAF Waltham at any time during the war please get in touch.

All stories are vital in building up a picture of what befell the 'ordinary' men and women of wartime RAF Bomber Command, and, I hope the stories on this website offer a fitting remembrance. It is gratifying to discover a snippet of background 'gen' or a family anecdote but it is always a complete bonus to have a photograph.

Two names closely associated with Jimmie Ives were David Johnson and William Allan. Close relatives of both have been in touch recently and have very kindly sent photographs – many thanks to Madeline, Bill and Simon and to Max in Australia for taking such trouble in sending me photos of their uncles and for telling me a bit more about them.

It is so sad to see images of both young men – confident, smiling, good looking types – both of them. Both much loved and missed by their families – 'Davey', as he was always known, supported his recently widowed mother (father Wally had died of heart problems in 1940) by sending his pay home to Seymour Street, Splott, Cardiff. I had gleaned from a genealogy website that Davey had two sisters - Beatrice and Murial, but Madeline, Beatrice's daughter, confirmed how close the three siblings had been.

 

Beatrice, Davey & Murial Johnson

Davey Johnson volunteered for the RAF in 1939 and by the time he joined Jim Ives's crew at 1662 Conversion Unit had already completed a tour of operations in August 1942 as an air-gunner with 38 Squadron, and on attachment to 40 Squadron in the Middle-East. Based at RAF Shallufa and flying from various advanced landing grounds 38 Squadron, equipped with Vickers Wellingtons were involved in operations against shipping in the Mediterranean and enemy-held harbours.

38 Squadron had an interesting modus operandi – 'A' – Flight's Wellingtons were armed with torpedoes (colloquially referred to as 'Torpingtons') and received information regarding the position of their target from a radar-equipped Wellington (a 'Snoopington') flying in advance and marking the shipping/ convoy location with flares. 'B'-Flight tended to carry a

more conventional bomb-load. Log-book entries show that Sgt D W T Johnson flew regularly with 'B'-Flight pilot Sgt Neal.

Johnson's next posting was at the beginning of December 1942 as a gunnery instructor at 28 OTU, RAF Wymeswold until mid-August 1943 when he moved on to 1662CU, RAF Blyton.

Having arrived at 'Bloody Awful Blyton' on 17^th August his first log-book entry at that unit was a week later - 25^th August, Lancaster W4890 (F)- pilots: Flying Officer Bennee and Sgt Ives. Take off 14.05Hours - task “Dual Circuits and Landings”, 2 hours and 40 minutes. 

After various personnel changes it must have been something of a boost for the rest of the Ives crew to have had such an experienced man with them. It is understood that because of his advanced years (29) and being the 'old man' of the crew he was given the epithet 'pop' or 'grandad'. Indeed Davey Johnson was renowned in the family for his responsible and caring nature – he had been a member of the Boys Brigade and was a keen footballer, staying involved with the BB organisation into adulthood. W/O Johnson is understood to have been offered the opportunity of a commission - which he declined as he felt that becoming an officer may commit him to an RAF career once hostilities had ended. Whether he intended to return to his job as a trainee accountant is not known.

Madeline's grandmother maintained that if Davey had still been flying with Ives he'd have survived – not intended as a slight against young F/Sgt Roy Gallop I'm sure, but a very sad irony that all three men died, within a few minutes of each other on the late evening of 30^th January 1944.

Sgt Davey Johnson, air-gunner

Sgt Bill Allan RAAF, air-gunner

Not too dissimilar in appearance was Bill Allan RAAF – Max's uncle Bill was a much-loved member of the family of eight children – four boys, four girls. All the Allan boys went to war – sadly Bill did not return - he was lost on the Nuremburg raid at the end of March 1944.

Max recounts that his mother, Bill's sister, 'tells me he was a real joker, always dressing up and teasing his sisters. You will see his theatrical bent in some of the photos, especially the one where he is pretending to shoot himself!!'

The short explanation that Bill Allan was a real joker immediately put me in mind of my footballing compatriot Royston 'Jacko' Jackson to whom a gathering of any number of people greater than one would constitute an audience for various antics. That Bill Allan's disciplinary record was not altogether exemplary may well have been due to the jester in him. A skerrick of alcohol may have been a contributory factor in the removal of two clocks from the Sun & Anchor pub in Scotter on 4^th August 1943 - but you can't help wondering whether the entertainer inside Bill Allan had taken over.

the theatrical Bill

Remembrance - art critic Jonathan Jones and classics scholar John Maxwell Edmonds - compare and contrast.

'When you go home, tell them of us and say

For their tomorrow, we gave our today' – is one ot four epitaphs penned by classics scholar John Maxwell Edmonds which appeared in an article for the Times newspaper in February 1918.

Writing for the Guardian, art critic Jonathan Jones recently expressed his views on the art installation of nearly 900,000 ceramic poppies at the Tower of London – his right, his job. How sad to have used the artwork for political comment, how churlish to have patronised four million visitors and how clever to miss the point. I am no art critic, but red poppies - ceramic, paper or natural are the symbol of remembrance. But poppies are apparently not brutal enough for Jonathan who would prefer to see barbed wire and bones, 'gory vile and terrible to see'. Perhaps he ought to have a go at that for next year – good luck with it – the components would most likely be woven around the word 'sorry' - on behalf of the rest of us poor nationalistic fools.

It seems from various 'vox pops' that people who have flocked to see the poppy installation have drawn their own interpretations of 'Blood Swept Lands and Seas of Red', just as they should. If they happened to bring to mind the image of a young soldier, or a forebear's name, then it is likely there followed some emotion reflecting that the person had been killed in a bloody war. The sentiment that their death may have been futile in the scheme of things may also have occurred. Trite perhaps, but 'job done' as they say. 

Did those who lost their lives in war do so to allow patronising folks like Mr Jones to look down his snooty nose at the rest of us?

As you will be aware this website is a vehicle for remembrance. I hope that the stories of the various young people here, for the most part now long dead, do them justice and cause us to spare them a thought.

Lilian Noble,  passed away on 3rd July 2011.

Lilian Noble used to plant two poppies on the Field of Remembrance every year – one each for Jimmie Ives and Allan Clifford.

Five weeks after last hearing from Jimmie Lilian gave him a nudge:-

82 Saltram Crest,

Maida Hill W9

Tuesday 29/2/44

My dear Jimmie,

I think that it is

about time you wrote me

a letter so I thought I would

remind you about it.

I have heard from

Cecil in the sanatorium and

he is having all sorts of

complicated experiments

carried out. I’m glad they

have got to work on him

without too much delay.

The Rowing Club

dance arranged for this

Thursday was on the verge

of being cancelled owing to

the raids but Alma got

her way in end and its

taking place after all. We

wish you were on leave for it.

Allan is still in Scotland

and according to him is

getting all sorts of invitations

for hunting, shooting & fishing

parties. He’s getting as good

as Poulter at that sort

of thing.

Well Jimmie, that’s about

all until I hear from you

Yours as ever

Lil.

Jimmie had been dead for a month. Lilian would not know of her friend’s death until her letter was returned to her in mid-May.

When Lilian’s last letter to Jimmie was returned to sender ‘on Air Ministry Instructions, she contacted his parents. Although the crew of ND360 were still officially ‘missing’ John and Mabel Ives and Lilian already knew the worst. Lilian wrote on 28^th May 1944:-

82 Saltram Crest

Maida Hill, W9.

Dear Mr & Mrs Ives,

I was so sorry to

hear the sad news about

dear Jimmie.

Jimmie taught

me my job at London Region

before he joined the RAF.

he was always most kind

and helpful in those

days and later when he

went to America we wrote

a great deal to each

other and became firm

friends.

His leaves were

always bright spots for me.

There was so much he had

to say in that gay

lighthearted way of his.

Indeed he was popular

with everyone. He was a

great pal and his death

is a deep personal loss

to myself.

My sympathy is

with you. I am so proud

to have known him as

you must be to have

been his parents.

Yours sincerely

Lilian Noble.

The letter and envelope were retained amongst Jim’s effects. 

Jimmie Ives

Captain Allan Eustace Clifford was killed in action in Holland after the Arnhem landings in fighting around Oosterbuik on 13^th October 1944, he was 22 years old. Allan’s grave is in Overloon War Cemetery.  (sorry - no photograph of Allan Clifford available).